No midi coming in even when Bomebox is connected to Windows 10 PC

Hey all,

I have a setup where I have 2 Bome Boxes connected over a network. One at one end of the network the other at the other. They seem to pass midi info between them no problems. I also have macs and 2 PCs all connected using Bome Network Pro.

Today something weird happened, one of the PCs connected to the Bomebox stopped receiving midi, even though it worked for over a year. It can see the bome boxes and they can see the pc, but no midi is entering my program (Touchdesigner).

The only thing I have changed recently is enabling Jumbo frames on the network switch, because I'm using Waves soundgrid.

I've tried everything I can think of, checked the routing, removed and re-added the devices, reinstalled Network pro.

Could it have anything to do with the Jumbo Frames?

We have a show on Friday, so i'd really like to get it working reliably before then... For the moment I've connected a usb midi interface and run a long midi cable, which is far from elegant.

Many thanks!

Hi can you show some screenshot on the problem BomeBox? If connected by WiFI, show me the WiFi settings screen. If connected via ethernet, then show the ethernet screen. Then show the MIDI routing screen, the network MIDI screen and post the project file you are running on the problem BomeBox. Oh and also the device screen so I can see how you have aliases defined (if any).

A complete map of your setup would probably help too if we want to expedite getting this resolved. If you are seeing Both BomeBoxes and the PC’s then I would doubt it has anything to do with Jumbo frames. If you see the network devices then it means you have a good network connection between them using Bome Network.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

Hi Toby, knowing the nature of urgency you have, the quicker you can get back to me, the more chance I can help meet your deadline.

Steve

Thanks a lot for your prompt reply and willingness to help. I’ve been out of the studio this evening and won’t have access to the bome boxes until tomorrow afternoon (Berlin, Germany-time). I’ll send you the screenshots as soon as I can.

In the meantime attached is a quick network diagram and send to clarify the setup.

It’s been working great for over a year, so it’s truly a strange problem. Worst case, we can do the show with the midi interface connected, it just means running a midi cable along side the network cable. I’d just prefer not to have it running like that long term.

I’ll be in touch ASAP.

Many thanks!

Hi, Thanks for this!

Do you normally receive midi from you lighting PC from both BomeBoxes? If so, is it receiving from either?
If only one, which BomeBox are you not receiving from? I assume you have checked the default routes and/or the translators within the source BomeBox.

If there was a problem with the configuration with one of the switches, I would assume you wouldn’t be able to even see the BomeBoxes but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Also they wouldn’t see each other if the were not on the same network (unless you have configured the switches with some advanced network routing).

Does your lighting PC expose the BomeBox network MIDI ports? Do you have any other applications running on your lighting PC that may be capturing the MIDI (and blocking the connection to Touchdesigner)?

The good news is that the PC sees the BomeBoxes, so the issue is either MIDI routing (default routes or translators) , or the MIDI port on your PC being hijacked by another program.

Let me know when you are available to troubleshoot further.

Knowing the intended MIDI routes in your diagram should help further. I assume your lighting PC is supposed to receive MIDI commands originating from somewhere but not sure where and that path it is supposed to follow.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

Hi Toby,
So Friday came and went. Were you able to resolve this or did you have to go to a backup plan? Let me know if and when you are ready.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

Hi Steve,

Thanks for checking in. The show went well. I stuck with my midi interface backup system, as I didn’t have much time during the sound check to try anything else.

I’ll unpack the rig in the next few days and get you all the screen shots and other info you need.

I’m sure we can find a solution and I appreciate your help.

I’ll be in touch asap.

Many thanks!

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your patience. I finally had time to set everything back up and take some screen shots. Please find them attached.

I’ve tried to include the name of the Bomebox in each screen shot at the top right.

To answer your question of where the source of the midi is: Everything plays off our Cymatic audio uTrack24, which is at FOH. Some of the midi signals are routed to the FOH rack and others on to the stage bomebox. The Lighting PC which is not responding anymore is connected to a wireless AP (with ethernet ports) in the Stage rack via ethernet.

You can see the simple routing page of the Stage Bomebox in the screenshots.

We do not receive any midi -from- the lighting PC, it only responds to midi commands. That’s normal. We also don’t use any bome Translator or project files, just routing.

Basically it’s Cymatic audio utrack24 to all, and each device responds only to its specific midi channel.

The Red Missing devices is because I haven’t connected them. They have nothing to do with the Lighting PC problem, as they are unrelated devices.

The Lighting PC is called \"IS_Visual\" in the bome boxes. It receives midi directly from the FOH bomebox (Midi DIN in - IS_Visual).

Please let me know if you need any more info?

Many thanks!

Two more screen shots here in case needed.

 

Could I get a look at your network MIDI screen and your Alias Screen on your FOH BomeBox? I would like to check to ensure your FOH BomeBox has a good connection with IS_Visual. Also makes sure that the alias IS_Visual is properly set to your lighting PC.

Another suggestion that I think I would recommend.
Instead of running each BomeBox with no project file and assuming you also have a license for Bome MIDI Translator Pro, I would recommend you set up project files for each BomeBox with just MIDI routes set. That way when you load the project, all of your MIDI routes will always set they way you want them. It would be much quicker than going to each BomeBox and adding each needed route manually. You could leave the project with no translators so that only the routes get loaded.

Also, your screenshot on FOH routes does not look complete. It looks like there are more routes after LV1-Main but cannot see them because they are below scroll area.

I also noticed on BomeBox Stage you have a route between IS_RehearsalMAC to BomeBox Stage. It is generally not a good idea to route something to itself as this could create MIDI loops.

The missing routes on the FOH are in the screenshot by itself called: Screen-Shot-2019-11-13-at-15.35.38.png – The 4th Screenshot from the top. I can remove the Rehearsal Mac to stage routing, but the rehearsal mac was not connected at the time of the problems so I guess that wouldn’t create a midi loop?

Here’s a screenshot of the FOH Network Midi.

All devices on my network have manual IPs and the DHCP server is set to start above the manual IP range.

Hmm you connection to IS_Visual shows Pending. This is not good. This means there is no current connection from FOH.

True, thats because the PC is off. Let me turn it on and refresh everything. Screenshot on it’s way.

Two updated screenshots:

Still no midi arriving at the IS_Visual Pc.

It seems Midi is simply not arriving at Touchdesigner via the Bome Virtual Midi driver. Could there have been a recent windows update that broke something? Or any other windows setting that could affect it? Touchdesigner works fine with the USB midi interface however. That was my backup for the show.

Try temporarily disconnecting BomeBox Stage from the configuration. Maybe there is MIDI going to BomeBox Stage that is also routing to IS_Visual creating duplicate MIDI output or some sort of MIDI loop.

The procedure would be to remove one other MIDI route at a time, until you see the route from BomeBox FOH to IS_Visual come back to live. Also make sure there is no alias called IS_Visual that is tied to some other output location.

Is the Virtual MIDI port visible on your IS_Visual PC coming from BomeBox FOH if you open up MT Pro on that PC and look at available MIDI ports?

Ok, I might try deleting and removing all devices and all routes from both boxes, disconncting the pc etc. from all locations and starting again from scratch. What do you think?

Hi,

The first thing I would do is try to eliminate the switches as an issue. If you connect directly from FOH BomeBox to IS_Visual, does it work? If so connect back through the switches and see if it still works.

If it doesn’t work, either way. I would delete all MIDI routes and add them back one at a time starting with MIDI DIN In on FOH BomeBox to IS_Visual.

Before actually trying to see it with an application on your IS_Visual PC. I would see if I could use MT Pro on that PC to see the port and monitor the incoming MIDI. If that works, then your path is all set. Then shut down MT Pro (if your application is set to directly access FOH BomeBox) and try it there.

Add routes one at a time and hopefully when done, everything still works.

Once your routes are added, you might want to save them as a “route set” for future recall. Or you could create an MT Pro project as I suggested earlier with just routes, and run that project on your FOH BomeBox.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

I did a bit of research on Jumbo frames. Indeed if you don’t set all devices on your network to the same MTU (frame size) things could break. Maybe this is the problem? Did you change the frame size on your PC’s and BomeBoxes to larger MTU size?  (Probably 9000 instead of 1500)

On BomeBox, you can do this in the advanced configuration (see screenshot).

 

Here is a link to the article I read.

https://kb.netgear.com/25091/Guidance-on-the-use-of-jumbo-frames

Also, not sure how to do this but will likely also be required on Windows PC.

Hi,
I don’t think that this problem is MTU related.

Please test:
Either switch off jumbo frames in the switch temporarily.
Or connect both computers to a BomeBox and see if they can connect (BomeBox should be configured as Ethernet Master / DHCP server).

I would not change the MTU on the BomeBox. It will not help. It’s OK to run the switch with jumbo frames, and the BomeBox with normal frames (unless you’re using the BomeBox as switch, too, for those streams for which you require jumbo frames).

We’ll figure it out!
Best,
Florian

And to eliminate one “unknown” from the equation, please use Send SX as MIDI INPUT and OUTPUT for testing the MIDI network:
https://www.bomeloft.com/products/sendsx
You can type a simple MIDI message in the left MIDI OUT area like
B0 07 40
or
90 40 7F

So, stop all MIDI applications, run Send SX on both computers, and select the MIDI ports for IN and OUT in the Send SX menu of the remote computer.

Ok, I’ll give all that a try and come back to you with my results.

On a side note, I’ve been meaning to replace the switches in my system with better Cisco ones. I’ll do a test on the side with the cisco’s as well and see if it makes any difference.

What kind of switches are you using now? (just curious).
If they support VLAN, that might be a better way to go than using jumbo packets. I suspect that using jumbo packets for MIDI data may in fact cause issues as a MIDI message is typically only 2-3 bytes long and a jumbo packet of 9000 bytes seems to be a lot of overhead.

I’m installing a Cisco SG 300 (FOH) and 200 at stage. Both have VLAN support and the 300 has a DHCP Server too, which means my wireless AP will no longer be the DHCP. I’ve set up VLAN’s between the two switches, with Vlan 1 has general and Vlan 2 as Soundgrid only. The Bomeboxes will be on the general VLAN along with the DHCP server for added measure. I’m installing an additional Gigabit ethernet card in each of the machines to keep the VLANs completely separate.

Unfortunately Soundgrid says that “Jumbo frame compatible switches” are needed and the Ciscos only have a global setting for Jumbo frames. I’ll try with it both on and off and let you know how I go. This will happen in a day or so.

Hey guys,

I just wanted to come back finally with some good news on this issue!

I ended up fixing the problem by doing a complete windows 10 network reset:
https://www.howtogeek.com/265870/how-to-reset-your-entire-network-in-windows-10-and-start-from-scratch/

It seems although there were no reported or noticeable network issues and the Bome boxes could see each other, windows was standing in the way.

So far the connection seems solid and reliable again.

Afterwards I also upgraded the network switches to Cisco SG series with separate VLANs, 1 for Soundgrid and 1 for the rest (inc. Bomes) – works great, highly recommended!

Many thanks for all your input guys!

Wow, Windows issue. Glad you got it all sorted out and are up an running!