MIDI Translator Pro WiFi latency normal until you load into BomeBox?

I inquired about this at Elektronauts, but after a day with no response, I discovered I should have posted at this forum anyways, so here goes:

My new BomeBox with MIDI Translator Pro works as expected, but I’d like to make sure I’m not having computer issues. Once I’ve developed a project’s translators and loaded the project into the BomeBox and activated it, it responds as expected, i.e., instantaneously. While developing the translator in the software, though, the latency is pretty bad, making the Bome Network only useful for developing stuff. Is this normal? I’ll have the opportunity to compare with ethernet within a couple of days.

Hi,

Thanks for your question. I suspect if the latency is only when on your computer, the latency issue is with the computer plugin or sound engine. For instance, I've noticed a lot of latency with Microsoft included synth engine in Windows, however if I use a plugin instrument in Ableton Live, I experience no noticible latency.

 

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

I should have explained more because maybe I'm configuring something wrong, though I don't think so. I have a hardware MIDI controller going into the BomeBox's DIN, then the other DIN outputs to a hardware sound module's MIDI in. I'm developing translations of the controller's many MIDI triggers to do stuff on the sound module, about 60 translators. Everything works 100% correctly.

While developing, the computer is on the BomeBox's WiFi, and I connect with BomeNetwork. The minimum number of MIDI routes are set up. Everything on the WebConfig works as expected in my browser. When I play any of the controller's triggers, they register instantaneously in MIDI Translator's data monitoring windows, but the sound module has pronounced latency before it plays what was fed to it. If you tap out a rhythm, it's totally distorted due to the latency. One in 10 times, the trigger happens without latency. I develop and verify the preset this way, then when it's done, I save it onto the BomeBox and select it. Once it's active this way, it plays beautifully, no latency that you can feel. I can live with this, I suppose because it will cover my particular needs. But I'd like to verify that this kind of latency is a known price to pay with WiFi and BomeNetwork because WiFi. I suspect  it's not, and that the WiFi configuration is meant to be musically useful even if it's not recommended for live gigs.

I'm using a new MacBook Pro 16" with Catalina.

Hi,

In your case it may be that there is just too much WiFi traffic causing many packet "collisions" which cause the delay.  Is there a way you can go to ethernet connection instead and see if that helps?

Typically, I create projects entirely on my PC or Mac (using aliases) without using network MIDI and then upload the project to BomeBox for execution (redefining the aliases on the BomeBox).

You can also direct the traffic to a SW synth on your PC for development and then use the same redefined alias on your BomeBox for sending to the actual hardware. Or if you have the right adapter, you can hook up the actual device to your PC that way for development.

 

Once you load the project onto BomeBox, everything is then local so not subject to WiFi latency and noise.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

It sounds like your saying that the WiFi latency isn't of itself indicative of a basic problem or error, so that's good. As an inexperienced user, I don't dare develop without immediate feedback to verify behavior, and the WiFi connection does make it much easier to do that even with the latency. I did try a software instrument, but get the same horrible WiFi latency. I'll soon have an ethernet/USB-C adapter for my Mac, so I'll see if that more convenient way to work will also solve the latency problem.

May it is not WiFi after all. I you post your project file and how you have you BomeBox routing set up, perhaps I will find another issue. Also make sure you download and upgrade to the latest BomeBox firmware. I had some issues with 1.0 a while back similar to what you are experiencing so maybe that is it.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

Here's my project file attached. The MIDI out of the controller called "zd" is connected to the BomeBox's MIDI in DIN. The MIDI in of the sound module called "p23" is connected to the BomeBox's MIDI out DIN.

OK, so on your PC I assume you are sending and receiving from the BomeBox network port and then you have a route from your PC network port set in your BomeBox to the DIN connector out and another route from you DIN connector in back to the PC. Is this correct? Are you running BomeBox version 1.4.1 and Bome Network version 1.2.1? Could you take screenshots of the WiFI configuration page on your BomeBox and the MIDI ports and MIDI routing pages? I assume while you are testing, you are not running a project file as well on BomeBox, correct? Off hand, I don't see any issues with your project file. I assume you know you have a 1.5 second delay on a few of the notes off translators. They are titled "delay" so I suppose that is what you want. Steve Caldwell Bome Q and A Moderator and Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist bome@sniz.biz

Yes, the MIDI routes are as you describe.

Yes, versions 1.4.1 and 1.2.1.
Right, when I\'m testing, no project is loaded.
Yes, those delays are intentional.
I\'ve attached screenshots of my MIDI Routes and MIDI Ports. The computer\'s name is \"GRAY\"

One more variable: my BomeBox is about 2 feet from the computer, yet the WiFi connection sometimes goes down unless I sit the BomeBox on top of another piece of hardware instead of behind it, but that hardware is only a few inches tall. Since this small difference makes a big difference to stability, I wonder if the WiFi connection is more unstable than it appears. I have a WiFi router and bridge in the same room, if that matters. Another thing: when I unload the project, I get about 50 triggers work well before the latency kicks in.

I won\'t be able to test ethernet until I get a USB-C/ethernet adapter, which will be at least 4 days from now.

OK, I don't see a screen shot of WiFi settings. Do you have it set up as Hotspot, Client or Access point.  If you have it set up as Access point is ethernet also connected? If so, set it up either as a client (if you want to WiFi through your existing network) or as a HotSpot (if you want to to use the BomeBox network.  If you have it as an access point, the BomeBox might get confused since it has two networks and might be trying to connect through both with different IP addresses. If that is the case Bome Network would bounce back and forth between the WiFi and ethernet connections, thereby creating quite a mess of things.

The other possibility is that you may have a very noisy WiFi environment or perhaps the country settings on your BomeBox is not set up for your country.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

I forgot, it's HotSpot. The country code was 00-World, but performance improved when I switched it to my specific location. But now the problem doesn't seem like latency, but rather many notes not lasting long enough, i.e., note on's often sound like they're getting truncated. With the World country code, I now suspect it was some latency and some truncation. Also, this pattern of the first 20 or so note on's playing without a problem after un-selecting a loaded preset continues. After about 20 or so notes, the problem begins.

I forgot, it's HotSpot.
The country code was 00-World, but performance improved when I switched it to my specific location. But now the problem doesn't seem like latency, but rather many notes not lasting long enough, i.e., note on's often sound like they're getting truncated. With the World country code, I now suspect it was some latency and some truncation. Also, this pattern of the first 20 or so note on's playing without a problem after un-selecting a loaded preset continues. After about 20 or so notes, the problem begins.

Hi,

I set up a test case as follows

Virtual Keyboard into the project file BMT 1 (zd)

Output to BomeBox as Hotspot  BomeBox2 (p23)

In BomeBox, I set up 1 route MacBook to Macbook as a loopback

In the project file I put a trough route BomeBox2 to BMT 2

I set up a virtual instrument in Ableton Live (Funky Organ)

I then tested for latency and saw none, so I must assume that the issue has to do with your current WiFi environment. I did notice you had a few "sustain" notes so they appeared stuck but it looks like this was by design.

Virtual KeyBoard (BMT 1)-> zd - p23 (BomeBox with loopback) -> BMT2 (thru route) -> Ableton Live Funky Organ

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

 

 

If the notes are not lasting long enough, maybe check the decay on your synth. Note should not turn off until you release a key. There is nothing in your project file to turn off a note earlier (that I can see).

I understand, but even though there's lots of WiFi activity going on in this studio, it's not more than you'd routinely expect to see. It would be unfortunate if the device were really that sensitive. I'll see what happens with ethernet, because that's probably more desirable to use anyway. I'll also try another computer. Remember that the project plays 100% as expected when loaded in the BomeBox. The suspected truncation/latency issue only happens when the same preset is used over WiFi. So it's not settings on the synth. Just to let you know, for each trigger on my controller that triggers a sustained note (sends a note on with no note off), there's a corresponding trigger that sends conventional note on/note off combo to the same voice. I set these pairs up intentionally to work together, for example to simulate open high hat that's choked by a high hat pedal sound.

I understand, but even though there\'s lots of WiFi activity going on in this studio, it\'s not more than you\'d routinely expect to see. It would be unfortunate if the device were really that sensitive. I\'ll see what happens with ethernet, because that\'s probably more desirable to use anyway. I\'ll also try another computer.

Remember that the project plays 100% as expected when loaded in the BomeBox. The suspected truncation/latency issue only happens when the same preset is used over WiFi. So it\'s not settings on the synth.

Just to let you know, for each trigger on my controller that triggers a sustained note (sends a note on with no note off), there\'s a corresponding trigger that sends conventional note on/note off combo to the same voice. I set these pairs up intentionally to work together, for example to simulate open high hat that sustains until it\'s choked by a high hat pedal sound.

OK, this is not normal behavior. We know customers that play 16 channel MIDI files via WiFI from laptop to BomeBox over long distances with no trouble.

Perhaps you can send the log files so we can investigate further.

On Mac, you can see the log files in the /tmp folder

On BomeBox click on the LOG button after logging in. You can clear the log, then check verbose and then do some more testing and we should see more of what is going on.

Also make sure you don't have duplicate pairing for the same MIDI connections by looking at your network MIDI connection on your BomeBox.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

Your statement:

One more variable: my BomeBox is about 2 feet from the computer, yet the WiFi connection sometimes goes down unless I sit the BomeBox on top of another piece of hardware instead of behind it, but that hardware is only a few inches tall. Since this small difference makes a big difference to stability, I wonder if the WiFi connection is more unstable than it appears.

 

Leads me to believe you have some piece of equipment in your studio generating a lot of electromagnetic interference.  It may not even be WiFi.  Try moving your BomeBox away from your other gear and see if things improve. Also after setting to the proper country code, restart you BomeBox so that it remembers it.  Each country has its own regulations as to which channels to use so if that is not set correctly (either on your BomeBox or other equipment), that could cause unintended RF interference and issues like you may be experiencing.

For me, WiFi is great in my studio and I use it almost exclusively.  When you go to a new performance venue, however more risk is involved as you don't always have control of the environment. Consequently, I keep a long ethernet cable handing for this type of situation.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

I'll do the log file stuff later, but I should let you know quickly that the piece of equipment is a Roland Jupiter-Xm, which now makes my placement kind of asking for trouble. I have space issues, but I'll re-arrange things to free up the BomeBox because I can consistently make my computer lose WiFi sight of the BomeBox by moving it just a few inches this way or that. I've verified that the country code has stuck.

<double post>

I moved the BomeBox to a much better location, then tried the setup on my second computer, and there was no latency or any kind of unexpected behavior. I went back to the first computer where I'd been testing up till now, and the problem was virtually gone, particularly after I closed the log window. I do still feel like once in a while, a timing is off using computer #1, though it never is with computer #2. They're identical computers that are clones of each other using Apple's Time Machine. Another factor here is that the sound module has enough modulation going on that perhaps I'm misperceiving any remaining timing glitch as a BomeBox thing when it's really a sound thing. It's also possible that the computers' sightly different positioning makes a slight difference. Everything is within 2 feet of that Jupiter-Xm, which was definitely interfering before seeing as how moving the BomeBox cleared most of that up. I'll stay aware of the situation when bringing other sound modules online, but since the one computer does work 100% correctly so far, we can rule out any problem with my BomeBox or with any translators I've written.

I tried the ethernet port, and there's no difference in latency now that the Wifi problem is fixed. I suppose I could go to the ethernet connection if I put my BomeBox in a place with too much WiFi interference, but there's no reason to do that, and cable-free is more convenient.

I do have a problem with latency with the software sound module DrumComputer by SugarBytes. Everything works as expected, but there's a consistent latency of about 100-150ms. That's enough so that you simply can't play live. With the same setup, my hardware module has no issues, so I expect it has something to do with my computer or the software, not the BomeBox, especially seeing as how I get exactly the same behavior with ethernet and WiFi. I can't figure it out, so I'll ask at a DrumComputer forum, but I'd also appreciate any suggestions here.

I tried plugging my controller into my Roland Jupiter-Xm,  the Xm's USB into the computer, and turning on the Xm's USB MIDI thru capability. Inputting MIDI from the controller plays the software sound module without any latency. Inputting MIDI to software sound modules via Bome Network has this excessive latency problem. Same behavior on both my identical 2019 MacBook Pro's.

I don't want to simply assume that it's an issue with MacOS Catalina, but I also haven't been able to get my Roland UM-ONE to work on these computers, though it worked on previous Macs. Using Roland's updated driver for my OS, the UM-ONE allows MIDI out, but MIDI in never arrives at all at the software modules. Only MIDI via USB has proved reliable, but this isn't a reason to assume that the reason for Bome Net's latency can't be determined.

Yes, it is likely a latency issue with your software sound module or the platform it is running on. Please check with them but describe it with just running MT Pro (assuming you have the same issue there without BomeBox). I don't want them chasing an issue on what we have already eliminated.

Yes, I did that. They say the software's latency (DrumComputer by SugarBytes) is due to the platform. There's no latency when using DrumComputer as a plug-in in Ableton, and there's no latency with the standalone when playing it with the computer keyboard. The only latency is when using the external MIDI controller. Have you heard of any MIDI latencies in when not using MIDI over USB with MacOS 10.15 Catalina?

I haven't heard or experienced it with Catalina. Do you get the same latency when connecting from 1 mac to the other over rtpMIDI or Bome Network Pro? Maybe it is a buffering issue in the UM1 (but I doubt it as I think I would have heard this before). Do any other plugin synths besides Drum Computer experience this latency via MIDI DIN to USB cable?

Yes, I should have mentioned that my Arturia V Collection modules experience this same latency in standalone mode, a problem I didn't have on older computers with MacOS 10.14 and before. I don't have any occasion to connect from 1 computer to the other, and also, as I mentioned, controllers that plug-in with USB (KeyStep, Jupiter-Xm, Novation SL-MKIII) have no problem. It's just that I have this one must-use controller that's suddenly become useless when trying to input MIDI from it into the laptop. It's actually not a disaster since I have plenty of hardware I prefer anyways, but it would be nice to get to the bottom of this apparent MacOS issue. If you hear anything...

I'll keep my eyes peeled. I know many software manufacturers have recommended holding off on Catalina upgrade but they never specified in detail why other than they were working on updating their software to support it.