Device conflict, Push, Live and MTP

Im trying to use the user mode of ableton push as controller for my sequencer. but im having issues with ableton and MTP fighting for the push user output 2. it continually drops out and is causing looped messages.

how should i position the Push in relation to Live given i need it for MTP also. how can i streamline it?

i need to send with pad press from push (sends both on and off..) a message to sequencer and a message back to push user port to give light feedback (not sure if it needs to go through ableton or not).

but in order to have lights on the pad in the first place i need to send Note information from Lives clips (unless there is another way?)

 

so need:

-push user port--> MTP-->Sequencer

-connection between  Live and Push to send light info to pads (note and velocity constantly, would like to toggle them for mutes but cannot figure out how to toggle between turning a note on and turning it off in live.

seems simple and i have had it working but its buggy.

im sure there is an easier way around this using routings but im very new to this and am struggling. give me a point in the right direction?

should i set up routing so that BMT is between live and the push entirely? so in lives midi settings i would be enabling track and remote for BMT input and output ports instead of Ableton push ports? or is it better to run it as Ableton Intended with it selected in the midi preferences? when i have it set like this the Port status in BMT changes to pending of the Push.....

Hi, 

Run everything through MTP.  Any static routes use the MIDI routing capability.  Start MTP before starting Ableton Live so it doesn't try to use the Push ports directly.  If you want you can route specific things to different virtual ports to Ableton Live.

Review the below tutorial on how to manage device selection at the project, preset and translator level.  I usually do most of the device selection at preset level.  

https://youtu.be/KunN2A1rKMY

Anything you do with a translator, use swallow so that it doesn't also go through to the default static route. 

If you exit rules in a translator without executing outgoing action, it will never be swallowed. It will still send the original incoming message out the static route.

 

That is the short version. I'm not at my computer now (just a Chromebook) so if you still have questions. Check back with me tomorrow and I can look at the project file you posted and perhaps give a few more tips.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

What is best practice with clock signals as far as routing goes? how should i route it at the project or preset level? If my squarp sends clock and transport over usb how best to route this so it has an equal path to all gear and DAW(live)?

should i set up routing so that BMT is between live and the push entirely? so in lives midi settings i would be enabling track and remote for BMT input and output ports instead of Ableton push ports? or is it better to run it as Ableton Intended with it selected in the midi preferences? when i have it set like this the Port status in BMT changes to pending of the Push.....

Everything through MT Pro.

Push User -> MT Pro Translators -> Squarp

Push Ableton -> MT Pro MIDI Router -> BMT 1 -> Ableton Live

Ableton Live -> BMT 1 -> MT Pro MIDI Router -> Push LED Feedback

On your push mapping preset, I would set the default inputs and outputs at the preset level instead of at the translator level as if you make routing changes, you will have a lot less work to do.

See this tutorial.

https://youtu.be/KunN2A1rKMY

 

 

What is best practice with clock signals as far as routing goes? how should i route it at the project or preset level? If my squarp sends clock and transport over usb how best to route this so it has an equal path to all gear and DAW(live)? Just use MIDI routes in MT Pro for clock signals to the devices you want to provide clock. Note since Push (I believe also has Audio), it should flow to Ableton through the ASIO driver directly.

im still having issues running Ableton and Push 1, with MTP. I start the program first then turn on controllers (push and squarp pyramid on usb only at this stage) for it to connect to them the ppush ports unexpectedly closed and remain pending and greyed out.

i have already set up aliases in MTP and in Ableton to reference Push. so they dont commincate directly except i cant stop Ableton automatically mapping the Push as a control surface with its default ports even though i have surface 1 automatically set as 1 Push from BMT1 and Push to BMT1.

Push port 1 out goes to POrt 1 out alias and then this goes to Bome virtual--> BMT1 for Ableton to recognize it.

Push User port out goes to port 2 out alias then to bome virtual 2--> bmt2

but now i am not receiving anything from push and i can send anything to it.

i had it working yesterday but when i restarted today it wouldnt work. this device conflict began.

i have tried many routings but am lost. can someone take alook and tell me where ive gone wrong?

do i need to set up some forwarding translators from push to ableton? on both ports?

i tried with sysex but it changed nothing..

 

do i set the Default Push ports to active at the project level aswell as creating an alias? does it need to be active for the alias to work?

my input ports now show 3 ports from live wher before it was only 1..

now there is Push, Push 1, Push 2.

normally there is a port 1 and User port (2).. but notmatter if i delete them they come back. i have searched in my rules and translators and cant see any references to it...

i am trying to send notes to Push user port to light the pads (on timer from MTP) while also triggering cc and note messages to control sequencer and midi input channel chnage from my cp-33. as i said yesterday it was all sweet and this morning nada....

any assistance greatly appreciated

Hi looking at your project file, it looks like you have defined the following aliases. It is possible that you may have multiple aliases sending or receiving from the same physical port or device.

You have 7 input aliases and 7 output aliases. I\'m unclear how you want them assigned. Particularly

Ableton Use Port Alias! vs Ableton port 1 IN Alias vs Ableton Push 1

 

If you have an input port from Ableton Live for both user port and another port that should be 2 inputs

If you have output port to Ableton Live user and another port that should be 2 outputs

If you have input and output from Pyramid, that is 2 more ports (1 input and 1 output)

You have an output called Clock is this the same as the output port to Pyramid?

Pyramid MIDI USB input and output Aliases. Are they the same as the 2 Pyramid Aliases?

What is CP-33

 

My guess is you need to eliminate many of these aliases in your project and combine them in to the minimum needed.

As I see it you need

Inputs

--------

From Push User

From Push Ableton

From Ableton Live (BMT1)

From CP-33 Channel Changer

Pyamid (for clock)

Outputs

---

To Ableton User (BMT 1)

To Ableton 2 (BMT 2)

To Pyramid Squarp (For channel changing)

To Push Lights

---

Or 5 inputs and 4 outputs

So deleting some aliases seems to be in order here. You will manually need to go to any translators or presets that use the aliases you do not want otherwise, you will continually get prompted to assign them.

Once you delete unused aliases in the project file, you can clear all aliases in settings menu and re-assign them all over again. If an unwanted alias pops up again don\'t re-assign it. Go the the project and delete the un-needed alias again then clear aliases.

At the project level check all aliases you will be using in the project otherwise, Ableton may try to take it over again.

It may be helpful if you create a diagram for yourself with the alias names and their port names so that you can keep the aliases straight. It would also be helpful to me if you come back to me with more questions.

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks for your help steve!

i tidied up my aliases but Im still confused by how to use them and if i have done it correctly.

cp-33 is my piano controller, i want to have it chnage midi channel with a note on from push (cp-33 Ch Changer)

do i need to join two sources in the router section if i have a translator set up that requires them or is the translator enough?
do i also need to check the boxes next to the real input sources in the project default midi ports or just the aliases?

the Clock to BMT 3 Channel i created to allow connections for gear to the clock signal from my sequencer (squarp pyramid usb, midi clock not MTC). should i just reference the pyramid alias for the all the gear that needs clock? i did this as i thought it would be more stable to reference midi clock this way. is this the case?

should i route the aliases of push going in and out of ableton through the Bome virtual port1+2 --> Bome Midi Translator Virtual out 1+2?  or just straight out BMT 1 and 2??

what is the best order to start software and controllers in? if i start the squarp it disconnects the push channels in MTP but only one reconnects. and if i start push push its the opposite. i start MTP first then controllers then live, its conflicts, if i chnage the order it conflicts. hopefully this is just due to my alias dilemmas.

for the light feedback (push Lights) i am sending note on to push 2 to light the pads.

Im trying to have a few different types of light responses depending on what its mapped to. track select (top 16 pads) i want only the last pressed pad to be a different colour and for mutes i want them to toggle between two colours. i have achieved the mute toggling but it is now not working due to this conflict and my errors. is there a way using rules to set up the active track light?

 

thanks steve

much appreciated!

 

just to add im getting 3 push ports appearing on the input and the output Push, Push1,and Push 2. they come back if deleted. this causes the routings to get altered. what does that imply if there is an extra port? something in my MTP project or in Live/on my computer? also question about aliases, if i have already assigned in the output do i need to link them in Midi route also or will this create double messages. what ports should i assign to the default midi ports of the project? all the ones i use in it that say open next to them? or only the ones i want to control on a project wide level?

Look at this file not the previous upload. i deleted all midi routings between usb ports and their aliases. does the use of routing and aliases look ok?

Hi, could you diagram how you want things connected? In the diagram, put the the aliases you are assigning and the actual port names. This will put things straight in my mind on how to do this in MT Pro. If aliases are "showing up" again. it means you still have them defined in your project file. You need to rename them back to another assigned alias, the do the clear alias routine. Then when you re-open the project file, you should only be prompted for the aliases you need. If you are prompted for aliases that you thought you had deleted, you need to go through and change those aliases to one of the ones you want to continue to use.

Oh on on your other question. Only check the aliases you want for input and output and not the actual device ports. If you check both, you may get duplicate messages going to that port.

I started this diagram but got confused on how you want things set up. So I\'d like to ask you to complete. You can just draw on a piece of paper and scan if you would like.

What I need to see is the actual port names along with their aliases.  This should help you keep things straight. I would not assign multiple aliases to the same physical port as this will confuse things later on.

Also, a screen shot of your MIDI alias assignments might be helpful.

ok so i cleared the aliases like you said an redefined them i created lots more last night in prepartion for setting up the studio alot of the set ups will be identical so if you could help me with one of each type that would invaluable! much appreciated mate!.

 

I drew a basic plan showing the bones of the setup and the types of inputs I want from what. I have a bome box on the way but for now its into the computer with a usb hub and a Motu Express XT 8x8 midi interface.

 

There are a few types of devices i want to set up rather than draw the entire studio if you show me how to do one of each sort i can hopefully replicate it.

1. Devices on USB hub, eg Push, Tb03, CP-33(piano, Channel changed by push control)

        - synths sending notes and cc's to squarp

2. Software Ableton, Push needs to communicate with Ableton(automatically maps to Ableton push orts not BMT 1. causing issues everytime i start Live) and Squarp sending cc's and notes. it doesnt receive any info back from either source.

3. Midi Devices Juno 106 DIN out---> Motu -->set k0 to incoming channel value then Output on ch 1(note on off,cc#, Mod,Pitch bend) -->Squarp usb Alias

     --do i make an alias here for the DIN devices?  i did for most instruments last they are all the inputs you will see in my midi router list.

4. Squarp output sends back data to MTP--> if Ch 1 --> input channel=ja output channel =jb, if ja==1 then jb=k0 (MTP change back to channel k0)-->Juno 106 Alias-->motu-->Juno 106

 

 

Im trying to set up the following functions:

1. Push  Alias (port 1 and user port) USB hub <-->BMT 1 Ableton

     --port 1 out to alias<--> Ableton Push Port 1 out Alias<-->BMT 1  

                           all ableton control

     --port 2 User port <--> Ableton User Port In Alias!<--> MTP output to Squarp input Alias

                            -Control of squarp and Cp-33 Ch Changer by sending cc and note info

    ---MTP send note on to light pads--->Ableton Push Port 1 Out Alias

                       -trying to create track selct light where only one track is "selected" at a time.

                        --pads are all yellow. changes velocity when pressed. when another key pressed, returns to yellow  how could i go about this? the mute lights toggles on and off but cant get this function.

 

 

Thanks heaps mate here are some screen shots and a photo of the plan (sorry for my handwriting i was a chicken in a past life)

 

 

 

Wow, I will have to digest this a bit.

1) In Live, are you using MIDI remote Script (top section of MIDI) for port 1, user port or both?
2) Does Squarp send to Ableton as just an instrument (track) or also as a control surface?
3) How is your BomeBox going to play into this? What devices will be connected. Is BomeBox replacing MOTU?
4) Is your USB hub powered? (it should be since you have 4 devices connected)

General Guidlines
1) Define only one alias per device. Creating multiple aliases for the same device will bite you sooner or later.
2) MT Pro opens and closes ports automatically as they are needed. If you want to hold a port open all of the time, you should put a check mark by that port's alias at the project level to ensure the port is always held open. Do not also put a check mark by the physical port. The alias will handling the control of the physical port.
3) Only use thru paths in the static router if:
Most everything needs to go through that path untouched
You have variable length Sysex that you cannot manage with translators

Note that if you have a static path defined EVERYTHING will go through that path unless you have a translator that executes an outgoing action and the option "SWALLOW" is set.

For instance, if the translator has a rule like "if xx==yy then exit rules, skip outgoing action", then swallow will not work. In this case you need to set up another translator with the exact same incoming trigger and an outgoing action of none. Otherwise the message will still go through.

4) Organize your presets by device. Put all translator with the same input and output path under it's parent preset. You can have presets that have multiple output devices. If so, use their aliases, not their physical port. If you have a few exceptions (maybe one or two translators). You can override the preset (and project) paths within a translator, but do so sparingly.

5) Give your aliases meaning full names so you don't trip yourself up. I usually name my aliases "From xxx" or "To xx" to make it clear whether it is an input or output alias. Using a term like "MIDI DIN", may end up being confusing even if the device is currently on a MIDI DIN port. Maybe in the future it will be on a network or USB port and so naming it MIDI DIN would be confusing if you change to a configuration like that.

For your aliases based on the diagram I will use something like:

From Push Port 1
To Push Port 1

From Push User Port
To Push User Port

From CP-33
To CP-33

From TB-03
To TB0-03

From Pyramid Squarp
To Pyramid Squarm

From Live Control
To Live Control

From Live Instrument
To Live Instrument

From Juno 106
To Juno 106

For Clock I would just set up a preset (or maybe just a single translator) with defined inputs and outputs
Input: From Pyramid Squarp
Outputs:
To Live Control
To Juno 106
To TB-03

Notice I picked the Aliases from existing ones above.

For me, I alway prefer to use translators and seldom every use static thru paths. I've been bitten too many times in the past with the Swallow rule I mentioned earlier and prefer to have absolute control.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

Thanks so much mate! here is the answer to those questions 1) In Live, are you using MIDI remote Script (top section of MIDI) for port 1, user port or both? In Live i will use Port 1 to transport normal Push control of ableton. and the user port (port 2) is controlling squarp and cp33 channel changer via MTP 2) Does Squarp send to Ableton as just an instrument (track) or also as a control surface? Squarp only sends instrument to Ableton 3) How is your BomeBox going to play into this? What devices will be connected. Is BomeBox replacing MOTU? Bome box will be connected to powered class compliant USB hub (on its way) and will handle all the midi it will not replace the Motu the motu will act as a midi merger and router to transmit 5 pin midi Devices to the Bome box. ideally i would like to run the set up with or without a computer(as im just recording audio and midi on computer mostly so dont need it to jam Squarp handles all sequencing) but it seems i cant access push without live running? is this the case or is it just due to this midi mess i made? 4) Is your USB hub powered? (it should be since you have 4 devices connected) yes thanks steve hope this helps

The Motu will merge all 5pin midi signals to two midi cables into the bomebox for routing, channel toggling etc

made those changes but still having problem with Live taking over Push...

Im still having a conflict issue with Live, the Squarp and Pyramid. the ports drop out and remain pending when i start another device, ie if start push squarp drops out, if start live push drops out from MTP. keep chasing my tail..

the only way i can see to stop Live automapping Push to it default ports is to remove its Remote midi scripts from the Ableton directory but this means i can use push to control live devices.. This stopped the auto mapping to default push ports but did not stop the problem in MTP.

should i use the midi router for the 'from Push Port 1" to BMT 1 that goes to Ableton? as i dont use this port at all in my mapping file (only to control Ableton internally, which i cant do without the remote midi script in place...)

I will get it working how i want it then save and restart the comp to check and it happens again. the ports stop sending. its like a usb conflict in my computer.

The  "to squarp" port will often remain closed even when it says in the error monitor that it has reconnected..

i tried to implement all of what you have suggested and it helped alot. i was really in a mess before but now i feel like its well organised but its not working..

Thanks again for your help Steve

 

 

 

Hi, I'll take another look. I also asked Florian to get you involved in the current Beta program as I have one one occasion had problems with MT Pro ports closing themselves and Ableton Live "stealing" them while they are closed. If you are not doing any custom scripting or directing traffic to Ableton LIve from other than Push, then yes, you should be able to bypass MT Pro with the Push 1 port, however I suspect you are also directing MIDI clock to push from your Squarp to Ableton Live. Maybe we can open up a separate virtual port from MT Pro to send MIDI clock signals to Ableton Live.

Gotcha!

Hi, I\'d like you to try a few things for me.

1. Try the attached file. I went to the project level and checked the default ports for Push Port 1 Push User Port and Pyramid (both input and output). Hopefully this will force MT Pro to open all of these ports and keep them open so that Ableton Live or any other software or device should not be able to use them directly.
2. See if you can move your Pyramid or Push to a different USB hub or directly to the computer. I suspect one of these ports may be drawing too much power forcing the other device to go offline when you open them. I\'ve seen this a few times before and maybe even with the Pyramid Squarp. I just can\'t remember.  I have purchased a USB power monitor like this that tells me how much power a given device is drawing. I have a few devices that are a bit power hungry and sometimes cause adverse effects on other devices on the same hub.  I well designed USB hub, however should prevent this.

PS. Except I probably should have used the aliases instead of the real ports. In my case I\'m using named virtual ports (a feature coming in Bome Network) since I don\'t have the real devices attached.

 

Thanks for your ideas, i tried with the checking the default devices to no effect. the ports still drop out on new one connecting. the new one can even be Ableton.  i also tried this with the aliases checked instead then turned it off and on again but same result. it would work sometimes but always one of the pathways doesnt work.

push user port--> squarp

or

clock from pyramid -->Live

or

Push user port --> push user port for lights.

the one that drops out depends on which order they were started in.

i put one device on a powered usb hub and the other on the computer but that didnt change anything either. They still cycle their connections when i start the other. and Live always 'grabs' Abelton port 1 and 2 as default on opening. i cant stop this behaviour without removing the remote midi scripts from the Live folder. but this means i cant use push in Ableton.

I tried all this on the Beta from Florian.

 

Why would an output string say (port closed) in the Log window but open in the midi input section? this happens for one input at a time. can be squarp or push. it chnages with the order they started in.

i cant see why it will work for hours sometimes but then a save and set all to default setting and open it again the next day and it no longer works..appreciate all your time guys

thanks

brett

I'll discuss with Florian Bomers to see if he has any ideas. The MIDI input section information is derived from the MIDI engine. The log window is derived from the user interface and is obviously not in sync with the MIDI engine if it shows it is closed wile the MIDI engine shows it as open.

Its working now! It still freaks out with starting programs and losing ports but it seems to regain them.

I think i have to have the Default Push Ports AND all the virtual ports they are using for access to and from Live Checked in Project default Midi Inputs and outputs. This seems to allow Live to access it to allow access and to functionality in Live and in MTP via the 'to/from push User port' alias.

I have also routed the inputs and outputs 'to/from Push Port 1' with "Bome Virtual port 1" to allow access at any time for Live.

FYI what i did included:

1-----installing Beta from Florian (thanks mate!)

2----cleaning up aliases-using clear names 'from......' 'to......'

3-----Check to enable Project Default Midi ports the following ports only.

(no aliases checked for Push or Pyramid)

-Ableton Push 1                                                                                              (input and output)

-Ableton Push User port                                                                              (input and output)

-Bome Midi Translator 1 Virtual In                                                           (input and output)

-Bome Midi Translator 1 Virtual out                                                        (input and output)

-Bome Virtual Port 2-->Bome Midi Translator 1 Virtual out            (input and output)

-Bome Virtual Port 2-->Bome Midi Translator 2 Virtual out          (input and output)

-Pyramid MIDI USB                                                                                     (Input and output)

***Im not sure if i need all of these checked and some might be responsible for the remaining port drop issue. But im stoked its working and im scared to change anything in the name of tidying it up. Having said that if you see any glaring things let me know.

4---- Routed the inputs and outputs of 'to/from push Port 1' with "Bome Virtual port 1"

5-----In Ableton select Push and BMT 1 connections in the 'control surfaces' section in Preferences. It will           automatically map the Default ports in slot 2 for me with another Push selected. I have to manually change the second Push that appears with the default ports set (Ableton Push 1 and User) to 'None' but leave the default ports in place.  Then save as default set. its holding at the moment but will change with updates.

 

Hope this helps if anyone has a similar issue. Steve and Florian were amazingly prompt and helpful. Kudos to the customer support at Bome and these forums. You the Bome!

 

Hi, I did some testing on Live 10 with my Windows 10 PC today.

I found that once Ableton Live can open a port it will never release the port unless you restart Live. It also insists on defining a MIDI Remote Script if the device with a supported script is preset.

 

For instance. If I have an APC-MINI plugged in and Live sees it before the port is open, it trys to use the script and opens tries to open the port. If Ableton cannot open the port it just turns the port orange showing the error.  You can then define another port (like BMT1) for the script.

However, if it successfully opens the APC-MINI port there is no way to close the port in Ableton Live shutting down and restarting Ableton Live again with the port being used by another application.

 

This means in MT Pro, at the PROJECT level, any ports you do not want Ableton Live to \"steal\", you must put a check mark by that port so that it is ALWAYS OPEN in MT Pro BEFORE opening Ableton Live 10.  The second you close it in MT Pro, Ableton Live 10 will try to open it (unless you have redefined it to use another port) and then you will be hosed in MT Pro unless you close and reopen Ableton Live with MT Pro already having the port open.

In your case this means at the PROJECT LEVEL you must have Push 2 Port 1 - Push 2 User Port and Squarpy Pyramid open in MT Pro at the project level, before starting Live.

As far as I could tell the current Beta version of MT Pro (1.8.5)  behaves correctly as far as opening and closing ports as long as you remember this rule.  I have not tested with 1.8.4 yet but will try that tomorrow. I have also not tested either 1.8.4 or 1.8.5 (Beta) on Mac. I\'ve been using 1.8.4 with Ableton Live 9 on Windows 10 PC since it came out and never ran into this issue so I think it is OK.  We are also not getting any reports of problems so maybe most people are still running Live 9 or earlier.

 

 

Until today I was running Ableton Live 9 so did not see this problem. It looks like Live 9 properly releases MIDI ports once you uncheck them.

 

Steve Caldwell
Bome Q and A Moderator and
Independent Bome Consultant/Specialist
bome@sniz.biz

 

Ha, it looks like our posts crossed paths. I'm pretty sure we are on the right track.

"You the Bome!" :) hehe. Happy to see you made good progress!