scs 3m ableton mappings?

Hi there, just got round to ordering myself a scs3m, and im interested in developing a custom ableton controller with it. Ive heard tell of others doing this, but have found no shared examples. Does anyone have such a thing as a list of midi mappings to things like the led feedback? Thanks folk...

Hi lokey,

I am the Stanton Preset Developer, and I can tell you that there will be a preset for the 3 Series Controllers for Ableton soon enough...

The only way to get MIDI feedback to the device is if you use a map for another controller, eg. the APC.

I will keep you posted, or just visit the Stanton Forums:
http://forums.stantondj.com/

cheers,
Scott

Scott,

did this ever happen? you have no idea how sick I'm getting of reading these unresolved threads regarding the SCS3.

any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

many thanks.

Hey doombadger

Unforuntately Scott has moved on and is no longer involved on the Bome forum, whereas I've taken his place.

There aren't a lot of resources for the SCS3s, though I did do a ton of work on the presets as well. The advantage of the SCS3m, though, is you can do everything strictly internally, which is generally easier with Ableton as it doesn't really support MIDI feedback very well without native control.

I haven't been able to find a lot of resources on the SCS3m with Ableton either, but we can always build something together.

Jared

Hi Jared,

That would be quite brilliant as the SCS.3 system as a whole is criminally overlooked. I cannot help but feel there is so much untapped potential in these little bad boys and, despite all the frustrating moments of epic disappointment they've given me, I've felt like I've wanted to keep with them and I know exactly why.

When they work, they're stunning.

Let me bring you up to speed with what I'm attempting and more importantly, how far I've got.

The concept is to have 2 decks and FX In Traktor, controlled by 2 scs3d units with dual mode functionality, for traditional style djing synced and routing into 2 tracks in Ableton to enable the overlaying of loops, live improvisation, the use of VSTi's and performance based FX racks on send/returns.

So far the Ableton template has 3 audio tracks for loops - Kicks, Mids and Tops, in a group called, unsurprisingly, drums. A 4th track is designated Breaks for addition drum loops with a further 3 audio tracks for Bass, Synth and Vocal loops. 2 Aux in tracks handle the audio from decks A and B in Traktor and currently I have another 2 tracks set as resample ins, to record loops on the fly. A final track has been assigned to VSTi's and currently has Massive loaded which I'll be changing as I find it has an alarming habit of encouraging the user to make Dubstep. lol.

Currently I have all audio routing through the Send/Returns then on to the Master. Return A is "Clean" and set to channel A on Abletons X-fader. This track has no FX on it and passes the audio directly to the master. Returns B, C and D have 3 different complex FX chains on them, including a GR5 rack with Slicer, Stretch and. Resochord (great for turning any sound into instant techno) and a Glitch rack with some presets and a couple of random generators. These tracks can also be routed into eachother before hitting the Master and are all set to channel B on the X-fader. This means any track can be routed clean and/or through any FX or group of FX to create some serious mangling of the audio. It also allows cross cutting between a clean signal and the FX chains.

Triggering loops and recording is controlled by an APC40 set to native control. The "Pan" page on the track control encoders are midi mapped to a DJ EQ, a Gain and an Allen & Heath style filter sweep all originally by Terekith as well as a modified Fade2Distort effect from S4racen and the guys at Isotonik Studios. Currently the Device control encoders work as standard and most tracks have a 3 band EQ mapped to macros. The X-fader is Abletons native one.

The SCS3d's are mapped to decks A and B in Traktor via MT Pro using a modified version of the TPro preset. Both Vinyl modes are used as are the FX modes. A track browsing and loading mode is needed whilst left/right deck switching and EQ modes are not. Currently the 3m is running through MT Pro as well and is midi mapped to control the 2 audio ins and the send returns in Ableton. As there is now no X-fader in either Traktor or Ableton, I've mapped the 3m's to channel Gains set to peak at +2dB and bottom out at -35dB. This works well although as the APC40 uses the first 9 midi channels to talk to Ableton, all the 3m messages are translated and sent mainly on 10 and 11 with a few spilling over to 13 and 14.

Abletons midi clock comes out to an SLMk2 and then into Traktor via MT Pro. It's not ideal and it does jitter particularly when changing tempo.

Phew.....

So, that's where I'm up to. I think it's best to keep the APC40 in native mode and have both the SCS3d's and the 3m handled in MT Pro. What I need is the MIDI commands for the 3m which are floating around but not openly available. They're like sacred knowledge. I know how to manually change midi channels, presets and feedback modes, I even have the sysex commands from the Stanton presets but what I don't know is the sysex commands that aren't in the presets. A full list of the sysex commands would help.

Is there a "dump all" command or button combination for the SCS.3m?

Also, would I be looking at editing the 3m firmware built-in presets or is it a case of setting 'relative' 'absolute' or 'note on/off' mode via commands from MT Pro?

Will the 3m be better off running in Flat mode with commands routed through an MT Pro preset, in Application Feedback Mode to keep the LEDs in sync with Ableton or Automatic?

Do you think I'd be better off using Advanced template mode via MT Pro or Automap 4 to control the SLMkII?

It's all nearly there and I've been working alone on this for a few months, learning pretty much from scratch as I go. I just cannot the data I need to take it to the next level. I should add I'm looking for maximum flexibility in terms of adding new kit but I'm aware I'm rapidly running out of midi channels. I'm making this an open source project as well so everything will be made freely available to all without limitations.

Bet you wished you hadn't asked now eh! Lmao

Clive - damagedgoods

Hah wow, yeah, you've put a lot of thought into this.

As a quick thought, are you sure you don't want Traktor to output the MIDI clock to Ableton directly through BMT? I've seen Ableton have a better time reading Traktor's MIDI clock than the other way around.

As far as what you are looking for, I can dig into some of the documentation I have, but I'm going to speak to my contact at Stanton before I give anything out (NDA and the whatnot). I'm pretty sure what what you want, though, is totally doable. I think the 3m is better off running in Flat Mode, as you can tell it to update what you want directly from Ableton and Traktor respectively and make sure everything is lined up.

You shouldn't have to edit anything's firmware.

As far as the SL goes, this comes down to your preference. Automap is obviously easier to create a mapping for the SL as it's tailored (and Automap 4 is pretty cool) directly for it, but if you need to do some really advanced stuff then go for BMT. While Automap is great for the more basic functions, BMT offers a lot more advanced control (as I'm sure you already know). It comes down to what you want SL to do and whether or not Automap can handle it easily.

Like I said, let me talk to my contacts at Stanton and see what they come back with about the Sysex commands. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

Hope that helps. ANd don't hesitate to hit us up with more thoughts.

J

Cheers man you're a star.

I don't know how accurate this is and I certainly wouldn't expect you to comment but I can't shake the feeling that the SCS projects were very much a maverick operation run by a very small, highly dedicated team of visionaries who were often misunderstood by senior management at the company. Stanton have always struck me as being a very traditional DJ manufacturer, viewing the radical SCS series in much the same way as people from stone age would if you sat them down in a darkened Imax with 3d glasses and suddenly played them Avatar.

Call it an instinct. lol.

And yeah I totally appreciate your position there Jared. I wouldn't want you to send me anything that could be seen as breaching an NDA. I do a spot of beta testing here and there so I know the coup.

In regards to MIDI clock all I can say is "Don't. Just don't." I have spent literally days of my life trying to find a reliable, stable way to generate, send, receive and sync to a MIDI clock. I've had Traktor as master, I've had Ableton as master, I've used MIDIOX sending SMPTE out to Ableton and MIDI Sync to Traktor, I've had the SLMkII as the master, I've had clock running on its own dedicated channel, even it's own PORT. Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING can get around the fact that neither program, or any other I've found for that matter, actually produces a sample accurate and sharp MIDI clock signal. It's almost always off and wobbles about. Short of buying hardware to do the job having Ableton as the master is the best solution. It makes sense anyway as almost all aspects of the live performance happen in Ableton.

I agree that having the SCS.3 LEDs updated by the corresponding software controls is the way to do things but, as you mentioned previously, it's my understanding that Ableton only likes to output MIDI feedback to controllers with native remote scripting. I've begun looking into doing this but it does of course involve learning to program in Python first. Lol.

Any data on the SCS.3 that you can send me which is, or has previously been, freely available will definitely help me and, as I intend to make all the information open to others, it'll hopefully reignite some buzz and development in these groovy little boxes.

Mind you, those five new controllers from the team at Behringer look tempting, eh.....?

C

It's funny because of how tragic the old (see 1 and 3) SCS projects are.

Personally, I'm totally psyched about those Behringer controllers. I'm almost definitely getting my hands on them so things for Bome will be created, and rest assured I'm going to want big projects for those cause it'll be fun, no doubt.

And keep in mind with Python, it seems that every major release of Ableton prevents older user based scripts from working... so that makes things even worse.

Now, you're right that Ableton will only work with natively controlled MIDI, BUT you have an alternative. Mind you, a frustrating alternative, but one none-the-less: you can use BMT to handle all of your MIDI feedback. If you use the SCS3m for a function you will not be updating on the fly, you can use variables and timers to remove Ableton from the equation. It's a lot of work to do, but is totally workable (and we can help get it working).

Hi Jared,

I think I see where you're going with this. Correct me if I'm wrong but essentially the fader/encoder position for say, Traktor A: LowEQ is held in MT Pro as a global variable meaning the values can be stored, the units sliders switched to say, Traktor A: FX Mode, and then sent as feedback messages to update the 3m LEDs when switching back to EQ Mode again.

Or, have I got that totally off track?

As soon as I saw the Behringer system I thought 'Ello, they look kinda familiar are they up to their old tricks again?' and then lo and behold who turns out to be the man with the plan....

.....none other than the entire Stanton Group customer support team or, as he is more commonly known, nemonic. Lmao.

I've rinsed the funds pretty hard and need to at least make some token gesture of intent before hitting them for a more credit so the Behringers may have to wait a while although you may be interested to know I am in the queue for a KMI QuNeo

(does the 'happy gearwhore' dance)

Hah I totally know where you're coming from. I'm hoping to get my hands on the QuNeo as well, especially considering Florian and I had a great meeting with them at Messe. Might be able to get them to put out a raw MIDI spec and we can go nuts with them.

As far as MIDI feedback goes, you have the right of it, EXCEPT Traktor allows bidirectional MIDI feedback, so the SCS3 doesn't need to process anything in BMT.

In fact, in the SCS3 section of the official BMT file the SCS3 works exclusively as a pass through. There's no translation at all. This, obviously, doesn't work for Ableton. If you want to do what we're discussing with Ableton, everything will have to be hard coded into the BMT preset only because Ableton doesn't send MIDI out so well.

Yep I saw that very early on.

M: SCS.3m Thru .
in: oo pp qq - out: oo pp qq

I was quite thrown by that initially. After the relatively intricate coding in the 3d translators I was expecting even greater complexity for the 3m. As a n00b, looking at this all for the first time, to instead find something so simple was really very confusing. lol.

I've actually got a preset here for Ableton that another user wrote for the SCS.3 system. I think it's going to be very much a case of seeing what bits work in the various .bmtp files I have and using a combination of those as the basis for a new preset, built from (da)scratch.

Ahhh see what I did there?

God, I need to get out more......lol.

By the way, while I think of it do you know off hand if Stanton ever released an MMA v2 MIDI Implementation Chart for the SCS.3m? I've got pretty much all the info required for the 3d but not the 3m. I'd rather not spend ages ripping into it with MIDIOX if I don't have to lol

I wonder how much of this conversation will be rendered irrelevant upon the launch of Bitwig Studio.....

Before we make that assumption re Bitwig, wait for it to come out. It looks good, but I'm hesitant that it'll actually happen.

No MIDI spec has been released for the 3M, but it looks like one might be sooner or later, depending. For now, take it step by step, for sure, and see where it leads you. Also, don't hesitate to ask questions as things come.

Lol I hear you loud and clear. I'm on the list for beta testing and get the occasional excited email which is, as always, "it's done when it's done" but I'm all too familiar with the phenomenon known as vaporware. Even the mere mentioning of David Braben used to throw me into week long depressions.

WHERE IS ELITE4??!!

Anyway, here's where I am now.

Traktor: Both vinyl modes 1 & 2 work 95%. Just need to fine tune the scratch settings in the tsi and work out how to get momentum on spinbacks. It used to do it, now it doesn't. Loop modes 1 & 2 90% working. Again, this is just tweaks. FX 1 & 2 working 95% but Deck A B14 has issues. If I hold my finger on it hard and kinda push it sometimes it comes on, then takes ages to get to switch off again. Pretty sure that's a hardware fault. EQ modes 1 & 2 are now doing nothing as all EQ is handled in Ableton.

To get these working with Ableton is it simply a question of re routing the outgoing MIDI action and tweaking the translator or is there more to it than that?

Trigger 1 works. Need to look into merging a browse/load function onto Trigger 2. Deck modes are not used currently.

Ableton 3m adventures continue and I've got MIDI going to and from the SCS.3m and Ableton. As the 3m defaults to Ch1 all commands get sent to 11 and 12 to avoid conflicting with APC40. This all works up to a point but I'm still trying to get my head around Timers. lol

Do you know if the 3m can be set to default to a MIDI channel higher than 8. Right fader, right cue gives 1 to 8 select but that's it. Maybe another key combo or even a SysEx? I read somewhere on here that the 3m firmware Thru is just a MT Pro preset. Does this mean I could flash a finished v1 of the 3m settings to hardware and reduce the load in Bome. I plan to add A LOT more functionality to this template and I'm concerned about resources.

Thanks in advance for your time and the benefit of your juicy brainmeats

Clive

Hey Clive

Unfortunately I don't have any sysex information, or firmware editing information. I've been digging around and bugging my contacts so we can put together a serious MIDI Spec, but that's going to take time. However, I'll be sure to provide info here as soon as I possibly can.

As far as MIDI Channels go, if you take any input from the 3M you should be able to output any other channel manually. So, you could, in theory set a global rule that's something along the lines of
but if you start creating individual translators just change the channel manually and you should be golden as well.

You shouldn't have to worry about resources. With the updates Florian is making to BMT and the already pretty serious resources of the program it would take a LOT to break it. I've seen this with the SCS1 presets. you should be golden.

Hope that helps.

And again, once I get the information I need I'll be sending it across.
Jared

Hi Jared, been a while I know but I just thought I'd post an update of where I am now.

The SL Mk2, APC40 and SCS.3 are now all running through MT Pro to either Ableton or in the case of the SCS.3d, Traktor. Here's a summary of what works thus far:

SCS.3d x2
- Decks A & B in Vinyl Modes control Traktor transport and pitch as usual. Gain controls to Ableton.
- Loop Modes work as usual.
- FX Modes work as usual.
- EQ1 now handles file browsing / loading including shift function for fast page scroll.
- EQ2 - not assigned (coming)
- Trig Modes as usual
- Deck Modes not assigned (coming)
- Decks C & D will function in Ableton (coming)

SCS.3m
Mapped fully to 2 stereo channels from Traktor into Ableton including:
- EQ3 with relative fine control, both Toggle and Momentary kills and Allen & Heath style sweep filter from Terekith.
- FX sends on sliders and buttons with either Toggle or Momentary send to 3 Send/Return channels with multiple vst fx, Glitch, Fade2Distort, Delay, Flange etc.
- Volume, Cue.
All controls except Vol and Cue have LED feedback from Ableton. Vol and Cue LED feedback handled natively by 3m. Some of this is done via midi mapped, some is controlled by ClyphX from Stray at nativeKontrol.

APC60-40 from Hanz Petrov
- standard APC40 functionality including handshake through MT Pro.
- all additional functionality of custom scripting also works fine including Step Sequencer.
- Cross fader cuts between dry signal and fx send/returns.
- Pan Track Controls mapped to EQ3 and fx on master channel.

SL Mk2
- MT pro now handles push button selection of different preset 'modes' for custom functionality and corresponding SL control templates.
- 'Ableton Mode' gives broad 'generic' control.
- 'Kontakt Mode' gives control over an 8 ch stereo Kontakt Multi instrument with 8 midi channels. Running in two instances, one for recording/playing and one for pre listening Cueing. Instrument unfolds when Kontakt Mode is activated, prepositions APC redbox onto the 8 Kontakt tracks and folds instrument away upon changing mode.
Kontakt Mode is also being built to bounce all midi down to audio on 8 audio channels and duplicate midi pattern for non destructive live overlaying with a 'one touch' control. (coming)
- 'Massve Mode' is well, obvious really innit. Will also be incorporating templates and custom modes for other major VSTi's including Nexus 2, Vanguard, Blue, Zebra 2, Z3TA+ 2, and more (coming)

Also coming this weekend is a Launchpad and Bidule which should create some interesting new possibilities.

Phew. and breath. nice.

So, I'm out of Virtual MIDI ports, 1 is Traktor, 2 is APC60-40 track and remote, 3 is SCS to Ableton, 4 is SL to Ableton and 5 is dedicated to ClyphX. Any idea how I can incorporate the Launchpad as well?

I'm finding the Keypress Emulation somewhat unreliable with no real way to ensure focus remains on Ableton. Even when strictly monitored it isn't always working. Sometimes it bounces down, other times not. Sometimes it copies the MIDI, sometimes it doesn't. Can you think of a more reliable method? I can't find any real info in the API but then, I'm only just learning it.

That's it for now, if anyone wants to play with what I've made I can upload an unfinished latest version of what has become known here as 'New Beginnings.'

Although admittedly designed to work with the kit I have and at this stage only coming with a blank Ableton template it is limited but at least it's something to get in and have a go on.

Clive.

As far as Keypress goes, I know Florian is working on better application selection, which would focus for the keypress a lot better. It can be frustrating, I know.

You can always download MIDIYoke and use that in addition. It works really well and clean with MIDI Translator.

What you're doing sounds great. Keep the ideas coming.

Hi Jared,

Thanks for the positive feedback and encouragement it does mean a lot.

Good shout for the Sticky with links to major topics, I actually found myself thinking what a good thing it would be to collate all the posts into a resource and was planning to mention but it seems like we're on the same admin focused page. lol.

I'll be keeping info coming here but I've begun a new thread for a project that is just the SCS.3 system for Ableton AND Traktor synced and routing audio for external mixing. Really its just to establish if there is any interest or need for such a beast from the community. If someone says they want it then I'll start the job of separating it out from the main project and putting support docs together. Don't really see the point if no one's getting wet about it.

Tried MidiYoke as you suggested and it works but it's nowhere near as reliable as I would want. Florians Virtual ports are made out of granite by comparison.

All the best,

Have a good weekend.

C

No arguments here on the reliability. I've had very few issues with MIDI Yoke, but I have had NO issues with the BMT ones. Hope it works enough for you to get done what you need.

Don't hesitate to bring questions here. Florian keeps me around just for that :p

Hope all is well
J

Hi,

All is well thanks.

The issues with the Launchpad and midiyoke are solved and seem to be more related to failures in my understanding of midi ports than to failures in any software. I use MT Pro ports with Aliases like this:

Alias: "IN - from APC40" - Device: Akai APC40
Alias: "IN - from Ableton(APC_64_40) - Device: Bome's Midi Translator 2 Virtual In

Alias: "OUT - to APC40" - Device: Akai APC40
Alias: "OUT - to Ableton(APC_64_40) - Device: Bome's Midi Translator 2 Virtual Out

Then in Ableton the Bome's virtual In and Out ports are selected as input and output devices for the APC64-40 remote control surface script and also have Track and Remote switches set to ON to allow mapping for the user modes and functionality for the step sequencer.

However, using the same approach for the Launchpad and MidiYoke results in a midi feedback loop which within seconds sends Ableton crashing to oblivion in a fiery ball of doom. It also deactivates all of Bome's virtual ports.

Having read more, having a bit of a think and then poking myself in the eye, I realised this is obviously what a midi loopthru will do and I needed to set things differently.

I also made a mental reminder to always leave it to my mate to wire up the sound system. Midi feedback crashes software, audio feedback blows up rigs. One is a slight ballache, the other is very expensive. Lol.

So I have MidiYoke set up:
Alias: "IN - from Ableton(Launchpad)" - Device: In From MIDI Yoke: 1
Alias: "OUT - to Ableton(Launchpad)" - Device: Out To MIDI Yoke: 2

That way I get no midi feedback and the MidiYoke ports can talk to the Launchpad85 remote control script and the Track / Remote in and outs for user modes, customisation and another step sequencer.

My next mission is to find out how to combine the session highlight boxes of both controllers so that certain modes they will move together. I know it can be done through a hack involving the APC classes combination mode, I guess something to do with making the APC script see the Launchpad script as an APC20. As usual I'm finding info hard to come by. I've found two people who claim to have done it but, like my ex girlfriend, they aren't keen on sharing. I've contacted the usual suspects to see what they dig up so if you can shed any light there or point me in the right direction I'd be most grateful.

Clive

APC60-40 from Hanz Petrov
- standard APC40 functionality including handshake through MT Pro.
- all additional functionality of custom scripting also works fine including Step Sequencer.
- Cross fader cuts between dry signal and fx send/returns.
- Pan Track Controls mapped to EQ3 and fx on master channel.

how does it work ?


--------------------------
mini projector

anatomcreview wrote:how does it work?

Which bit are you on about? APC64-40 is a custom python control surface script by Hanz Petrov. Ableton uses Python coded scripts to communicate with its natively supported controllers like the Launchpad, APC20, APC40 , Axiom, etc. It works for two main reasons: 1) Hanz Petrov is actually god. 2) my APC presets/translators pretty much send the mid messages straight thru as they come in. This keeps all the cool stuff Hanz did working and allows for some additional tricks like moving the APC40s redbox, etc. The only thing to make sure you do is select the correct Input Output ports in Abletons Midi Sync preferences. Each controller device can only talk to one application and the first one to do so gets exclusive control. So, as the APC40 is already talking to MT Pro, you can't select it in Ableton. You must give it a Bome's Virtual Port IN and OUT in MT and select those instead of the APC40.

The cross fader on the APC40 is commonly used like a traditional dj mixer for pre listening to the tune you're bringing in without it getting sent out to the rig. You hear it, crowd don't, right? Safe. Well, this is no different in principle. Rather than routing any of Abletons tracks to cross fader A or B, the Send Return tracks are instead. Send A is a clean track with no fancy FX. It just sends the audio to the Master Out untouched and is assigned to the left side of the cross fader - A. Send B, Send C and Send D have various FX racks on them and they are all assigned to the right side of the cross fader - B. All the tracks in Ableton are set to route out to "sends only" and by default have Send A set to 100% with all other Sends at 0%. So, select your playing track or group, Send to any FX either B, C or D and cross fader full left = 0% FX, cross fader to middle = 50% Clean 50% FX and cross fader full right = 100% FX. The wonderful bit begins when you start feeding the Send FX into each other but WATCH OUT FOR FEEDBACK - IT EATS RIGS.

The Track Control encoders are simply midi mapped. No mystery or even skill there I'm afraid.

Hope that answers it.

Clive.